Romancer

Left my fear by the side of the road. Hear You speak and won't let go. Fall to my knees as I lift my hands to pray. Got every reason to be here again. Father's love that draws me in. All my eyes wanna see is a glimpse of You...


...You hold the universe.
You hold every one of us.
- (Hillsong)

I am standing on the shore, digging my toes into the velvet sheet of sand beneath my skin, gazing at the thunderous, majestic waves roaring before me. Boundless, beautiful and beaming of Him. In and out, the ebbing waves never sleep, ushering to the shore ripples and splutters of foam, daring towards me like a million white galloping stallions.

Everywhere I look, the beauty of His handiwork bellows out His love for us. He's been pursuing us all along. Romancing us with overarching sunsets, shooting stars, glimmering seas and towering mountains. Nature cries out His royal architecture. We are encompassed and sealed by an out pour of the transcendent affection He lavishes us with.

Who are we, for Him to even notice us? I cannot fathom it.

Jesus, the Creator of this universe, pursues us.

Does God Love the Non-Elect? [RESPONSE]

So this was originally supposed to be a comment on John's prior post regarding God's love towards the non-elect but it was too big -.-

This is therefore primarily to John, although you can feel free to read as well even though I can practically guarantee that you'll disagree with me *sigh*

Anyway here it is :)


LOL you had to, didnt you? I actually like this post cos thinking through your arguments kinda reinforces what I believed all along :P

My major issue with all this is still the same. How can God love AND hate someone at the same time?

Now granted it might just be a paradox that we can't fathom, but i think that should be a worst case scenario...we should only assume a paradox when there is sufficient biblical evidence to suggest that it MUST be a paradox. And I still haven't seen solid biblical evidence to suggest that it must.

I was actually thinking about this recently. I realised that the problem that my mind has with reconciling this paradox is that love and hate are two opposing extremes. Someone might say that God's justice and mercy are CONTRASTING, but love and hate are OPPOSING.

Think about it...imagine you meet a person for the first time. For what ever reason you hate this person. But then they do something nice and you begin to like them a bit more. As you start to love them, what happens to your former hatred? It LESSENS. It cant possibly remain at its former intensity because that is what loving someone more means! Hating them less! lol

This is my issue. How can God love AND hate at the same time. His love would diminish his hate and his hate would diminish his love!

But anyway Im gonna go through your post and point out the problems I see.

First of all your analogy of the father whose son kills his wife falls apart because non-believers are not children of God but are in fact children of the devil. Therefore, God is under no obligation to love them. If you mean sonship in terms of Him being the creator and us being the creation, then let me ask you this. After Lucifer and the demons fell did God love them? According to your analogy he must. And i dont think you believe He does.

Now you said:
"A person who believes that God hates and does not love the wicked people of this world will read this and say that God showed love for Christians while they were still sinners because and only because He knew that they would be the ones that Christ would be in, and change. This view however, limits God and takes this verse out of context."

I'm assuming you got this from me lol but I think your misrepresenting my view. You think that I believe God can only love people after he has decided that He will send Christ to die for us. You're right in a way, but you have the order wrong. I believe God CHOOSES to love the elect first. But if God must hate sinners then He cannot continue to love us the way we are. It would go against His very nature! Therefore what will inevitable result from his choice to love us is to CHANGE us. In other words, He loves us too much to leave us the way we are. Hence, Christ and the cross.

Remember, were reformed lol. Arminians have no problem with God loving non christians and still seeing them go to hell, because ultimately theres nothing he can do about it! But we don't believe that. If God truly loves, He will save. Remember, love is an action, not just a feeling.

You then use 1 John 4 to claim that the word "might" means that the "us" in the same verse means everyone in the world. I think thats a HUGE stretch especially considering that IF youre right, then that will be the one and ONLY time in the whole chapter that the words "us" or "we" refer to the whole world and not just believers.
Yes, "might" indicates a possibility. Christ died to make it possible for us to be saved. That in no way indicates that he died for everyone. A possibility does not negate a certainty. I think thats the mistake you made. If anything this text supports limited atonement because John claims Christ died so that WHO might be saved? "WE"! All you have to do is read verses 5 and 6 and you'll see the clear contrast between WE and THEY.

In regards to John 3:16 you said:
"It also goes further than that though, in that "the world" means humanity in general; because Christ came and died so that anyone could actually get into heaven, in all of history, and Jesus was here explaining the born again process to Nicodemus, not explaining the idea of Jews and Gentiles. Also, go on to verse 17 and the context of using "the world" to mean simply "all nations" does not make entire sense. This view of all nations is seen in this scripture, but is not limited to this, for it is explaining how God loved humanity in general."

You infer that the term world here means humanity in general but you don't show how. You then say in context taking world to mean "all nations" does not make sense, but again you don't show why.

I personally agree with you that world means humanity in general here, but in the sense of "all nations" more than "all individuals". I get this by simply reading a few verses prior to verse 16. If you read verses 14-15 and you'll see that Jesus is discussing ISRAEL, the nation. He then contrasts Israel with the WORLD in verse 16. Given this its very easy to see how the word "world" here refers to "all nations and not JUST Israel".

In regards to 1 Timothy 2:4, the interpretation is quite easy if you read the verse in context. Here's what Paul says (verses 1-4):
"First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Now its very easy to read this and say, "oh well God clearly wants EVERYONE INDIVIDUALLY to be saved". But remember that Paul's point here is not limited/unlimited atonement or anything like that. If you read it properly he's saying we should pray for kings and all people in authority. Now this wasn't a small deal coming from the guy who had at this point been abused and imprisoned by such authorities on several occasions. But Paul gives a reason as to why he wants believers to pray for such people. Look at verse 3. Praying for kings, etc. is good and acceptable in the sight of Jesus. Why? Look at verse 4 now given the established context. God desires ALL men to be saved. Not just the poor. And not just Israelites. But from ALL nations and from ALL classes. He desires that the elect be a truly diverse group of people! Diverse-city babbbyyy haha!

Don't get me wrong. I believe that God can act lovingly towards the non-elect, as is indicated in Matthew 5:43-45, but this does not mean that he loves them. In fact I believe his loving care towards non Christians is meant to emphasis and magnify His love for the elect. What do I mean by that? Imagine that you own a hotel and your best friend calls in a favour and asks you to let a friend of theirs stay at your hotel for a discount price. Now you dont love their friend (you dont even know them). But out of great love for your friend you set their friend up in the nicest suite you have completely free of charge. In fact you make sure they get the finest treatment while they stay with you because you love your friend so much and want to please them by making their friend happy.

Now not every aspect of this analogy matches up with God's relationship to us but the principle is the same. Since God's loves the elect SOOO much, often even the non-elect get the benefits of this love (eg. he causes the sun to rise on them as well as believers). Hence God is loving towards humanity to show just how much the ELECT humans mean to him. Think about it. If God had not chosen to send Christ to die for sinners, but instead let people live out their lives in sin and then die to face eternity in hell, do you really think he would still give them all the joys of the earth that people experience today (eg. a plethora of different foods, beautiful sights, the sun rising and setting, etc)? I doubt it.

Moreover, I believe God is loving towards the non-elect (and to us before we were saved) in order to provide us (who don't know who will be saved and who wont) with an example of how we should love all people indiscriminantly. Remember that although we are to follow God's example in some things, were are not to do EVERYTHING that God does. For example we can't kill or judge people whenever we feel like. Only God can do that because He is God! He is UNIQUE. So just because God commands us to love everyone, does not mean that therefore He must also love everyone.

Anyway I think that covers it all. In case I sounded at all conceited or cocky in this post, i'll say again that I don't know everything (it is hard to admit :P) and I'd actually like to be proven wrong in this area cos its lonely not having anyone agree with you :(

I'll leave you with this question.
Does God love those who are in hell?

If he DOES, then how is he showing it, since love is an action and not just an attitude towards something? By torturing and exacting his wrath upon them for all their crimes? Thats a strange love. It's just. But it's not love...at least not a love for them.
If He DOESN'T then what causes him to suddenly switch from loving and hating them while their alive to now only just hating them once their dead? Why would being alive or dead determine God's love for you?

Anyway have fun with this :) I know its ridiculously long

Peace

Does God Love the Non-Elect?

Romans 5:6-11

"For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation."

So I just want to mention my thoughts on this passage of scripture and the love that God has for us. Paul is trying to explain how inconceivable God's love is so that we have shameless hope and rejoice in our sufferings. It seems pretty obvious that his current audience are Christians. He is explaining how much God loves Christians, so they should not feel shame in their hope, but rather joy in their suffering. That is the context here, but I want to go a little deeper.

I have been tossing and turning with the idea that God loves only the elect. It has been something that I have not believed, but have not understood enough to take a side. My current view of God is that yes, he hates the wicked (Psalm 5:5; 11:5; Romans 9:13), there isno doubting that, it is made clear in scripture that God hates evildoers. However, it has been my belief that God both hates, but loves the wicked at the same time. I always imagined a father who's son killed his wife. If you were that father, would you not hate what your son has done, hate him in fact, but still love him because he's your son? If you say you wouldn't act that way, can you imagine any person on this earth that would? And if a human can love like that, how much more could God love like that?

Now I have read this scripture, and in particular verses 7 to 8, I see just how BIG God's love is! Yes this scripture is referring to the elect, but I want to go deeper into this scripture. "For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." While we were still sinners, while Christians were still sinners. A person who believes that God hates and does not love the wicked people of this world will read this and say that God showed love for Christians while they were still sinners because and only because He knew that they would be the ones that Christ would be in, and change. This view however, limits God and takes this verse out of context.

There are two categories of love here; the ability to die for a good person, and the ability die for an enemy. To say that God only died for us because He knew we would accept Him in the end puts God in the first category, that He only died for a good person. If that is the only reason that God would die for a human, because God knows that a human will love Him back after it, then He is only loving that person to the point of death because that person will love Him back.

The idea that Jesus only died for the elect (which I am not sure if I believe) is NOT because the elect are the only ones that were loved (in fact this creates a paradox in the famous John 3:16; because He loved us He sent His Son, not He loved us because He sent His Son), but because God is omniscient and knows who will accept Jesus, so why punish Jesus for for those who will receive punishment for themselves? It has nothing to do with His love for the elect and hatred for the wicked.

Back to Romans 5, Paul puts God in a bigger picture of love than what we are capable of. Yes Paul is talking about Christians, but it is so much bigger than that! By Paul explaining that a human can go to the death for a good person, but God's love made Him go to the death for His enemies, takes God out of that first category of loving and dying only because He knew we would be saved, but loving to the death because HE IS LOVE (1 John 4:8), and continue on to verse 9, "In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him." God sent His only Son into the world SO that we might live though Him, not BECAUSE.

Yes, these verses talk about Christ's love to humanity rather than to individuals, but He still loves all humanity. When it says "us" in 1 John 4:9, it is not talking about elect because of the use of the word "might". It is saying that God's love was made manifest to us in Jesus being born, so to the world in general. John 3:16, "the world" does not mean the "elect" (as is a paradox) but means that God did not only love the Jews, but loves all nations. It also goes further than that though, in that "the world" means humanity in general; because Christ came and died so that anyone could actually get into heaven, in all of history, and Jesus was here explaining the born again process to Nicodemus, not explaining the idea of Jews and Gentiles. Also, go on to verse 17 and the context of using "the world" to mean simply "all nations" does not make entire sense. This view of all nations is seen in this scripture, but is not limited to this, for it is explaining how God loved humanity in general.

God's love is for the sinners, and even if it is in a more general sense rather than an individual sense, God loved His enemies and sent His Son to die to save as many as possible, as 1 Timothy 2:4 explains. The Calvinist or the Arminian view of this verse understands that God "desires" something bigger (being either to display His glory or to preserve free will) that prevents His "desire" for all people to be saved to come into existence.

Yes, God does love us more because we have Jesus in us, but He loves everyone. He loves more than any human on this earth is capable to love, and He hates in a more righteous and intense way than any human on this earth is capable to hate.

Lukewarm Love Loses

“Dear lukewarm Christians,

Here we are, attending fancy functions, politely judging the inferior, keeping our houses pristinely pretty, worrying about financial difficulties, ensuring our reputation isn't bruised, preoccupied with our standard of living rather than others’ living, feeling content and neutral, twisting our faces in disgust at injustice in one moment then forgetting it a few minutes later, indulging our time with delightful vacations and emphatically declaring our devotion and love for Christ. From a Christian who has repented of my lukewarm ways”

… was written by a Christian who believed she/he was on fire for God. Perhaps some of us frown upon this sarcastic extract and accuse that person of rebuking our remaining complacency, passivity and dangerous contentment with sin. We must all admit, there is a tone of anger in the writer’s piece. Is it righteous anger of reckless judgment? That hardly matters when we compare that writer’s opinion to God’s opinion. Without humility, self reflection and willingness to confess, some of us may dismiss the above spiel as undeserved criticism and sink back into one of the most dangerous beliefs – that we are safe and truly in Christ (when in actual fact, we might still be in danger).

Although it is not by effort or desire that no one should boast (Romans 9:16), truly being in Christ and having the Holy Spirit of God in you means you are striving and scraping and clawing and praying your way through sanctification (Romans 8:5-11). In other words, if we are truly saved, we should be genuinely fleeing from sin because it revolts us to the bone (Ephesians 4:30).

A Tree and it’s Fruit

‘Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every good tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them…

…Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ – (Matthew 7:15-23).

The Wedding Banquet
Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: The Kingdom of Heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet…

… But they paid no attention and went off – one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated tem and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find’. So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests…

… But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. ‘Friend’, he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless. Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth’…

…For many are invited, but few are chosen’. – (Matthew 22:1-14).

If Jesus returned tonight, are you confident He would take you with Him to paradise?

Tron: Legacy: Does it have Spiritual Undertones?

Tron: Legacy is (if you didn't already know) the 2010 sequel to the 1982 Tron, which in itself was not a blockbuster movie, but has become a "cult film", with few, but highly devoted fans. There have been differing opinions as to why this was the case, such as the fact that there was a Tron video game before the first movie came out, but there is one particular idea that caught my eye, and that is that the spiritual undertones presented gave the story more meaning to those more open-minded sci-fi fanatics. These spiritual undertones are revisited in Tron: Legacy, and I want to explore what these undertones could represent, and how they relate to the bible.

I watched Tron: Legacy last night with a few friends, and though it is a great movie imo, I definitely would not compare it to movies like Avatar or Inception based on the epic storyline, action or visuals. I would agree that this movie did have great plot, action and visuals, but I would say it had an eerie feel to it, kind of like those spiritual undertones were subtly punching you in the face.

Before we get into it, here is the trailer (the coolest one imo :D)

WARNING!! SPOILERS!!

So basically the characters are Kevin Flynn as the creator of this digital world and former president for ENCOM, Sam Flynn as the son of Kevin Flynn and the main character of this movie, Alan Bradly as close friend of Kevin Flynn, executive consultant for ENCOM and creator of Tron; a security program that fights for the users, Clu as a program made in Kevin's image, built to create perfection in Kevin's world, but becomes a tyrant in trying to do so, and finally Quarra as the last ISO; beings that came to life within Kevin's world he created, but not by his doing, calling them "miracles", while Clu called them "imperfections".

The easiest, and most likely first thing to conclude, is that Kevin would be portrayed as the Father, while Sam would be portrayed as the Son, Jesus Christ. There are however many inconsistencies with this idea, for example; Kevin was the one to sacrifice himself to save humanity from Clu, not Sam, Sam is not seen as the Creator incarnate, but more like another god incarnate, Sam is seen as being romantically attracted to Quarra (who would be the Holy Spirit if one were to take this view) rather than someone who represented humanity, and so on. I would like to propose another viewpoint that Kevin Flynn is the trinity in one person, i.e. The Father as the Creator of the world who loved all that he created, the Son as the one who sacrifices himself to save humanity and the Creator who walks with his creation, and the Holy Spirit as the one to guide his children to their destiny. Kevin has powers in this world that none other have, and although he is not omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc, he is shown to be wise, powerful and know where he is going and where to go. I think that Kevin Flynn would best represent God in all His persons.

So what does that leave for Sam and Quarra? The idea in this movie (contradictory to scripture btw) is that God created some, and the rest just grew into life in the right situations. Kevin was smart, and knew a lot, but was in awe at his creation, more than they were themselves. For he did not create every single part of them, but they grew themselves and he merely had a hand in that process. So back to Sam and Quarra, I think they both describe humanity in their own way. Quarra is as much Kevin's daughter in the digital world as Sam is in the real world, and with both he had a hand in creating, but did not create them fully as they grew in the right conditions. Kevin guided both of them to their destiny and sacrificed his life for both of them in the end, which is what God did for humanity.

Clu would be viewed as the devil, the evil tyrant of the world. He was the creation that Kevin made "in [his]... image". This makes it seem like Clu is man, because man was made in God's image in scripture. However, I believe that Satan is viewed in this movie as loved by God, but just a flawed version of His creation. This is shown especially in the scene where Kevin is pleading for Clu to understand him, and does not blame Clu for his way of thinking. I think the "in my image" idea is more to portray that Satan is still one of God's children, even though he is evil, has rejected God and will spend forever in hell. I also think the "in my image" idea portrays Clu as symbolizing the side of humanity that rejects God, which at first seems to grant a more Calvinistic feel of predestination in the movie, that evil men and Satan were predestined to go to hell. That being said, the movie has an overall Arminian feel to it, emphasising God's "free will" as well as man's, with the main theme being that perfection (no free will) means that there is no life. The idea is that with free will comes mistakes, which brings imperfection, but also brings life. So I think this movie portrays the idea that Satan and the wicked go to hell merely because God could not prevent it, rather than God created it that way (which is a view of scripture that I do not hold FYI).

Tron I would view as an angel, as well as the rest of the programs. I think this is seen mostly in the way that Clu reprograms many of the programs to be his army, much as the same way that Satan convinced a third of the angels to follow him and betray God. Tron seems to be shown as an angel who rebelled against God, but free will is hinted at even further than what an Arminian would say by hinting that Tron can come back and fight for God again.

Finally, Alan Bradly would signify believers that held on to their faith when no one else would. They had a real relationship with God and walked with Him for many years, and it was their faith in God that allowed humanity to be saved.

The final biblical theme that I would like to emphasize would be the idea that Kevin's death saved the world, ridding disease, changing religion, philosophy, most likely stopping wars, and bringing earth to what one would seem to be a paradise, much like the new earth promised to all of Christ's followers.

I am not saying this is gospel lol, this is just one dude's opinion. It would be awesome to hear from anyone else if they have any other ideas of how the bible may have been represented in Tron: Legacy :)

Well, that's my rant for tonight, God bless!!

The Power in not Praying.

So I have listened to this message by Francis Chan "Think Hard, Stay Humble: The Life of the Mind and the Peril of Pride", and I feel like sharing the main points I got out of that message, because it has struck me like a tone of bricks.

His main message was based around 1 Corinthians 8:1-3 "Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, he is known by God." Which was an amazing sermon about how we could have all the knowledge in the world, but have absolutely nothing. Great message and I would recommend it to anyone serious about Jesus. I however wish to talk about something he said in passing that really hit me:

James 5:16 " Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working." The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. I mean, I always knew this, but I didn't really know this. I didn't understand the implications it meant for my life. There are people in this world who are suffering, and worse, who do not know the love of the Father, and I sit here at home thinking that there is not much I can do for these people. I mean, I don't have money to feed the poor, my father won't allow me to go on missions trips, I need to spend time doing things now so that I can help people later when I get a real job and am able to support others, but does this really mean that I sit back and do nothing? First of all, there are people everywhere who don't know the Father's love, but what I really want to get at is "The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working." Do I really believe in the power of prayer? If I think there is nothing I can do for the suffering in this world, do I really have faith? What I should be doing is asking God to cleanse me of my sins, make me a holy and righteous person, so that when I pray, things happen. What has hit me so hard is that, my lack of seriousness towards sin is killing people. My laziness, my lust, all my smallest sins are stopping me from coming to God and caring about the world. Because of my lack of passion and enthusiasm, people are going to hell. That is serious.

Don't misunderstand me here, I believe that all Christians are righteous before God through faith, not works. "The righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins." (Romans 3:22-25). So if we sincerely believe in Jesus, have repented of our old ways and are following Him as our Lord, our prayers are powerful enough to stop the rain (James 5:17-18). But what happens when we are walking in our sin? We are far from God AND WE ARE NOT PRAYING LIKE WE SHOULD! Our sins are not merely acts that we commit against God that warrant divine judgement, our sins are divine judgement, and the more we are sinning the more it is evident that our relationship with God is not as it should be. "And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done." (Romans 1:28). The less we acknowledge God, pray, study His word, the more we will be judged, by God giving us over to our depraved mind.

So it is evident that my lack of prayer and my sins are killing people:

Not walking in sin = Close to God = Powerful and righteous prayers = Helping those who we currently do not have the ability to help in a practical/physical manner.

Walking in sin = Far from God = Little prayer = People who could have been saved by our prayers will not be saved.

I hope this encourages you to live a holy and righteous life, and pray earnestly for the people around you, the wrong done in 3rd world countries, the sin in our society and the big things that we think we cannot change. Pray prayers that make a difference in this world.

As a final note, if you're not sure what to pray for, I leave you with this:

"Pray without ceasing" (1 Thessalonians 5:17).