Categories
12/31/10
Genesis 11
12/28/10
Hilarious Animal Voiceovers
12/26/10
X-Mas Origins: Santa
12/24/10
Does God Love the Non-Elect? [RESPONSE]
This is therefore primarily to John, although you can feel free to read as well even though I can practically guarantee that you'll disagree with me *sigh*
Anyway here it is :)
LOL you had to, didnt you? I actually like this post cos thinking through your arguments kinda reinforces what I believed all along :P
My major issue with all this is still the same. How can God love AND hate someone at the same time?
Now granted it might just be a paradox that we can't fathom, but i think that should be a worst case scenario...we should only assume a paradox when there is sufficient biblical evidence to suggest that it MUST be a paradox. And I still haven't seen solid biblical evidence to suggest that it must.
I was actually thinking about this recently. I realised that the problem that my mind has with reconciling this paradox is that love and hate are two opposing extremes. Someone might say that God's justice and mercy are CONTRASTING, but love and hate are OPPOSING.
Think about it...imagine you meet a person for the first time. For what ever reason you hate this person. But then they do something nice and you begin to like them a bit more. As you start to love them, what happens to your former hatred? It LESSENS. It cant possibly remain at its former intensity because that is what loving someone more means! Hating them less! lol
This is my issue. How can God love AND hate at the same time. His love would diminish his hate and his hate would diminish his love!
But anyway Im gonna go through your post and point out the problems I see.
First of all your analogy of the father whose son kills his wife falls apart because non-believers are not children of God but are in fact children of the devil. Therefore, God is under no obligation to love them. If you mean sonship in terms of Him being the creator and us being the creation, then let me ask you this. After Lucifer and the demons fell did God love them? According to your analogy he must. And i dont think you believe He does.
Now you said:
"A person who believes that God hates and does not love the wicked people of this world will read this and say that God showed love for Christians while they were still sinners because and only because He knew that they would be the ones that Christ would be in, and change. This view however, limits God and takes this verse out of context."
I'm assuming you got this from me lol but I think your misrepresenting my view. You think that I believe God can only love people after he has decided that He will send Christ to die for us. You're right in a way, but you have the order wrong. I believe God CHOOSES to love the elect first. But if God must hate sinners then He cannot continue to love us the way we are. It would go against His very nature! Therefore what will inevitable result from his choice to love us is to CHANGE us. In other words, He loves us too much to leave us the way we are. Hence, Christ and the cross.
Remember, were reformed lol. Arminians have no problem with God loving non christians and still seeing them go to hell, because ultimately theres nothing he can do about it! But we don't believe that. If God truly loves, He will save. Remember, love is an action, not just a feeling.
You then use 1 John 4 to claim that the word "might" means that the "us" in the same verse means everyone in the world. I think thats a HUGE stretch especially considering that IF youre right, then that will be the one and ONLY time in the whole chapter that the words "us" or "we" refer to the whole world and not just believers.
Yes, "might" indicates a possibility. Christ died to make it possible for us to be saved. That in no way indicates that he died for everyone. A possibility does not negate a certainty. I think thats the mistake you made. If anything this text supports limited atonement because John claims Christ died so that WHO might be saved? "WE"! All you have to do is read verses 5 and 6 and you'll see the clear contrast between WE and THEY.
In regards to John 3:16 you said:
"It also goes further than that though, in that "the world" means humanity in general; because Christ came and died so that anyone could actually get into heaven, in all of history, and Jesus was here explaining the born again process to Nicodemus, not explaining the idea of Jews and Gentiles. Also, go on to verse 17 and the context of using "the world" to mean simply "all nations" does not make entire sense. This view of all nations is seen in this scripture, but is not limited to this, for it is explaining how God loved humanity in general."
You infer that the term world here means humanity in general but you don't show how. You then say in context taking world to mean "all nations" does not make sense, but again you don't show why.
I personally agree with you that world means humanity in general here, but in the sense of "all nations" more than "all individuals". I get this by simply reading a few verses prior to verse 16. If you read verses 14-15 and you'll see that Jesus is discussing ISRAEL, the nation. He then contrasts Israel with the WORLD in verse 16. Given this its very easy to see how the word "world" here refers to "all nations and not JUST Israel".
In regards to 1 Timothy 2:4, the interpretation is quite easy if you read the verse in context. Here's what Paul says (verses 1-4):
"First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
Now its very easy to read this and say, "oh well God clearly wants EVERYONE INDIVIDUALLY to be saved". But remember that Paul's point here is not limited/unlimited atonement or anything like that. If you read it properly he's saying we should pray for kings and all people in authority. Now this wasn't a small deal coming from the guy who had at this point been abused and imprisoned by such authorities on several occasions. But Paul gives a reason as to why he wants believers to pray for such people. Look at verse 3. Praying for kings, etc. is good and acceptable in the sight of Jesus. Why? Look at verse 4 now given the established context. God desires ALL men to be saved. Not just the poor. And not just Israelites. But from ALL nations and from ALL classes. He desires that the elect be a truly diverse group of people! Diverse-city babbbyyy haha!
Don't get me wrong. I believe that God can act lovingly towards the non-elect, as is indicated in Matthew 5:43-45, but this does not mean that he loves them. In fact I believe his loving care towards non Christians is meant to emphasis and magnify His love for the elect. What do I mean by that? Imagine that you own a hotel and your best friend calls in a favour and asks you to let a friend of theirs stay at your hotel for a discount price. Now you dont love their friend (you dont even know them). But out of great love for your friend you set their friend up in the nicest suite you have completely free of charge. In fact you make sure they get the finest treatment while they stay with you because you love your friend so much and want to please them by making their friend happy.
Now not every aspect of this analogy matches up with God's relationship to us but the principle is the same. Since God's loves the elect SOOO much, often even the non-elect get the benefits of this love (eg. he causes the sun to rise on them as well as believers). Hence God is loving towards humanity to show just how much the ELECT humans mean to him. Think about it. If God had not chosen to send Christ to die for sinners, but instead let people live out their lives in sin and then die to face eternity in hell, do you really think he would still give them all the joys of the earth that people experience today (eg. a plethora of different foods, beautiful sights, the sun rising and setting, etc)? I doubt it.
Moreover, I believe God is loving towards the non-elect (and to us before we were saved) in order to provide us (who don't know who will be saved and who wont) with an example of how we should love all people indiscriminantly. Remember that although we are to follow God's example in some things, were are not to do EVERYTHING that God does. For example we can't kill or judge people whenever we feel like. Only God can do that because He is God! He is UNIQUE. So just because God commands us to love everyone, does not mean that therefore He must also love everyone.
Anyway I think that covers it all. In case I sounded at all conceited or cocky in this post, i'll say again that I don't know everything (it is hard to admit :P) and I'd actually like to be proven wrong in this area cos its lonely not having anyone agree with you :(
I'll leave you with this question.
Does God love those who are in hell?
If he DOES, then how is he showing it, since love is an action and not just an attitude towards something? By torturing and exacting his wrath upon them for all their crimes? Thats a strange love. It's just. But it's not love...at least not a love for them.
If He DOESN'T then what causes him to suddenly switch from loving and hating them while their alive to now only just hating them once their dead? Why would being alive or dead determine God's love for you?
Anyway have fun with this :) I know its ridiculously long
Peace
Does God Love the Non-Elect?
12/23/10
New FLAME single!
Pretty hooked on this song right now XD
Look out for his new album Captured, coming out 3 days after Xmas i think :)
Why all the alls then?
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 1:29
The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
And look these up too if you got the time:
1 John 2:2, John 4:42; 6:33, 51
Now, most people take these verses and a bagillion other similar verses to demonstrate how God loves and died for EVERYONE in the world ever and wants EVERYONE in the world to believe and be saved.
I don't :)
But this post is NOT an attempt to convince those who hold to the former view of why their view is illogical and wrong and what not.
The standard Reformed view of these verses (which i adhere to) is that the authors are emphasising that Jesus did not die to only save Israelites or to only save lower class people but to save all kinds of people (Revelation 5:9).
But what always bothered me about these types of verses is not the persistent proof-texting that free willers are dying to confront me with, but that there's just SO many of them. I mean, I get that Jesus died for all types of people, but why does every author in the new testament (slight exaggeration) seem to want to make that clear? Why is it such a big thing to emphasise? Why all the alls???
In fact if anything would persuade me to switch over to the typical Arminian interpretation of these verses, it would be the sheer amount of the verses like this that exist.
It would seem as if God is trying to make a really important point here.
And that's because He is.
I discovered the meaning behind this aggressive emphasis of Christ dying for all, during my study of our weekly bible reading.
We're up to Genesis 10 at the moment which is basically one of those genealogy chapters that everyone groans at and upon encountering it wonders why God would purposely make the bible seem boring; which is what I did at the start of the week.
But then I decided to shrug off that lethargic attitude and really sat down with the text to see what God was saying here.
So that's what I did. I got my study bible out and checked the cross references for the text. For those who have no idea what the text is about, I'll set the scene.
In Genesis 9, Noah and his crew just got out of the ark after the rainy days. Noah throws his own private party (literally), gets drunk and passes out, naked, in his tent. Now, Noah has three sons; Shem, Japheth and Ham. Ham has a laugh at his dad and shows disrespect towards his father, which if you've read the bible, you'll know God puts right up there with murder (Romans 1:28-32).
In response to this, after Shem and Japheth cover him up (and after he sobers up), Noah curses Ham, blesses Shem and kinda half blesses Japheth. We then see in Genesis 10 the descendants of each of these sons.
Now the key part of Genesis 10 is that God's chosen people would come through Shem's line (because he has been blessed) and the enemies of God's people would come through Ham (primarily) and also Japheth. So we get a nice list of all the major sons of each line, and we (hopefully) recognise some of Israel's major future enemies, like Babylon, Assyria, etc.
Now, get this.
After around half an hour (at the most) of studying through all these cross references, examining where each of these descendants get mentioned in the rest of the OT, I fell into a line of thinking that I never thought I would.
At one point I actually stopped and said to myself, "wait...am I in God's elect line? Am I part of his chosen people? What if I'm a descendant of Ham?? What does that mean for me? Am I destined for hell?" I froze and instantly went in search of where Sri Lanka's earliest ancestors originated from, hoping i would be able to somehow trace it back to Shem.
Now at this point you're probably laughing at me and thinking I'm being completely ridiculous (or you've probably stopped reading cos yes I agree, this post is crazy long, but I'm about to make my point) and in hindsight I would completely agree with you. Obviously, Christ died to redeem people from all nations (as I hope was made clear at the beginning of this post).
But here is my point:
I fell into this crazed line of thinking after 30 MINUTES of bible study.
Imagine living your WHOLE LIFE under this type of theology. Because this is basically what it was like for Israel in the OT. God clearly played favourites and had made it quite clear that Israel was "His people" as opposed to the other nations. A typical Jew grew up easily being able to make the mistake of believing that God loved HIM only and hated all other nations. That God would send a Messiah for HIS people and HIS people only.
Then one day, all of a sudden, the Messiah rocks up and some random dude cries out at Him, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"
This would have ROCKED the world of the average Jew.
That salvation was not merely for the Jew but now also for the Gentile (Romans 1:16) was an idea that had to be so repeatedly emphasised so as to override thousands of years of faulty doctrine. And this is precisely why the NT constantly stresses that indeed Christ died for ALL!
And after my 30 second panic attack today, I have a new found appreciation of this truth. Let's take a moment and think about the gravity of these texts that Arminian interpretations fail to capture.
Soli Deo Gloria
Peace
Nirvana
There is something about the utter stillness of these intimate moments
I am thrust into a newborn sweetness that I hold my breath to savour
To feel You gently stir as you lay beside me touching the air I breathe
Composing my soul into a burning joy until I am compelled to weep
For the thousands of uphills I've crawled with blood gushing limbs
Never have I felt this divine, all encompassing shuddering love
While burying my face into the warmth of Your very Being
I pray You take my life away and just let me stay here
In Your arms, within Your sanctity of peace
To let me rest until time ceases to exist
Lukewarm Love Loses
“Dear lukewarm Christians,
Here we are, attending fancy functions, politely judging the inferior, keeping our houses pristinely pretty, worrying about financial difficulties, ensuring our reputation isn't bruised, preoccupied with our standard of living rather than others’ living, feeling content and neutral, twisting our faces in disgust at injustice in one moment then forgetting it a few minutes later, indulging our time with delightful vacations and emphatically declaring our devotion and love for Christ. From a Christian who has repented of my lukewarm ways”
… was written by a Christian who believed she/he was on fire for God. Perhaps some of us frown upon this sarcastic extract and accuse that person of rebuking our remaining complacency, passivity and dangerous contentment with sin. We must all admit, there is a tone of anger in the writer’s piece. Is it righteous anger of reckless judgment? That hardly matters when we compare that writer’s opinion to God’s opinion. Without humility, self reflection and willingness to confess, some of us may dismiss the above spiel as undeserved criticism and sink back into one of the most dangerous beliefs – that we are safe and truly in Christ (when in actual fact, we might still be in danger).
Although it is not by effort or desire that no one should boast (Romans 9:16), truly being in Christ and having the Holy Spirit of God in you means you are striving and scraping and clawing and praying your way through sanctification (Romans 8:5-11). In other words, if we are truly saved, we should be genuinely fleeing from sin because it revolts us to the bone (Ephesians 4:30 ).
A Tree and it’s Fruit
‘Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every good tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them…
…Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven , but only he who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ – (Matthew 7:15-23).
The Wedding Banquet
Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: The Kingdom of Heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet…
… But they paid no attention and went off – one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated tem and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find’. So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests…
… But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. ‘Friend’, he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless. Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth’…
…For many are invited, but few are chosen’. – (Matthew 22:1-14).
If Jesus returned tonight, are you confident He would take you with Him to paradise?
12/22/10
My Lazy Life.
Called to shine, with glorified bodies, kneeling before the throne.
With respect, honour and righteousness as our three best friends,
And when faced with rebuke, an entire nation who will defend.
But now we continue to grow old, fat and weak
Stocking up on enough lies to feed a family for a year.
When did we get so comfortable?
When did we get so complacent?
Why have I sat on this couch for so long,
That the seat became moulded to my behind,
As I watched my life pass me by,
On a screen of nothing but static sex?
Oh, I bet that fiend is pointing and laughing at us,
Somewhere beyond that screen of sin.
He says "Look! God come, just look!
Ha! You think that THIS man can ruin MY plans?
That sweaty, obese, bitter old man?
He has a beer in one hand and last night’s pizza in the other,
While he picks up some stale chocolate with his feet!
God, your soldiers don't even fit in their armour anymore."
Oh, how we were called...
Did we not hear it?
Did we forget it?
Did we have more important things to do?
Did we have tomorrow as a choice?
Did we want our own will?
Did we want our own pride?
Did we want our own material possessions where we thought we could run away and hide?
I tell you now;
Analyse yourself… critically.
Be refined.
For there is no place in God’s army for those who will not hear, listen or do.
God is calling you,
But, I tell you now;
He will only choose a few...
12/21/10
Why Hip-Hop Deserves Respect
But THIS takes skill...
My head is spinning (pun intended).
Peace
Forgetting Salvation?
12/20/10
Dare News up on YouTube!
I'm finally putting up all the highlights from our Dare News episodes over the past 2 years :)
You can check em out on my YouTube channel here (and please do cos right now I'm halfway through season 2 and I refuse to put the rest up until people watch them...yeah I'm stubborn like that)
Peace
12/19/10
Tron: Legacy: Does it have Spiritual Undertones?
12/18/10
Why Dead People Are Important
Picture this:
Your mind is at this moment completely wiped of all memory of your past.
I mean...ALL of it.
How would you function?
Well, apart from the fact that basic day to day activities such as eating, pooping and saving the world (for all you superheros out there) are now a LOT more difficult on your own, you would virtually have to start your life again from scratch.
Meaning, the last 20 or 30 years (or even 50 for that matter...not really sure what demographic were reaching here :S) were a complete WASTE.
Kinda sucky, isn't it?
But this is effectively what every Christian does when they choose to ignore their great forefathers in the faith and simply choose to grab a bible and figure life out on their own.
What we need to realise is that the Church didn't come into existence when we were born; it existed more than 2000 years before that. And it would be a huge shame for all the progress made in establishing biblical truth over the past centuries to go to waste in our generation.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm all for trusting in God's word ALONE. We should let the bible speak for itself and all that. But please don't be so arrogant that you assume issues that you face when approaching God's word have not been encountered before.
And don't be so arrogant as to throw away the centuries of wisdom and knowledge that God has provided for you to guide you through difficult doctrinal truths.
So do yourself a favour. Learn from the dead guys. If you've never heard of Luther, Augustine or Edwards, maybe instead of wasting your night watching some chick flick, you could look these dudes up and learn stuff that will benefit you for eternity.
And another thing...don't assume this is gonna be light reading. Some of these guys can be trickier than Shakespeare to read. But in my experience, the more difficult the language, the more satisfying it is when I search and find the treasure deep in their writings.
So as I'm probably gonna say in a lot of my posts:
Go read a book.
In fact, here's somewhere to start
(Click the download pdf button on the top left)
I'll leave you with this famous quote from Isaac Newton...
"If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants"
Peace
The Power in not Praying.
Rehab: The Overdose
Look out for Lecrae's new album coming out next month!
I think the general jist (or is it gist?) is that we all need to 'overdose' on Jesus...hopefully should be good
Peace